"Do I believe God is going to take away my illness when he turned an entirely deaf ear to the six million Jews who went into the gas chambers?" - Karen Armstrong
I think I am a good father. If it were within my power to prevent the starvation, torture and murder of my boys, I am certain I would. So did their Abba hear their cries? If yes, did he anguish? If yes, how could he not intervene?
I’ve been listening to a series of talks by Greg Boyd about prayer. Boyd does a good job exposing the fallacies and theological holes in the theory that somehow the systematic torture and murder of millions of people is a “good” that we humans simply cannot understand. Personally, I find this viewpoint repulsive so I don’t care to spend any time on it. Greg’s excellent talks can be heard here: http://www.whchurch.org/content/page_855.htm Look for “Scorpions, Eggs and Prayer” Parts 1 and 2.
In light of the reality of my world, how can I harmonize these beliefs: Yahweh is all good, is all powerful, and loves us like children, and sickness and sorrow are not “good”?
The critical premise for Boyd’s thinking on this is God’s choice to grant Free Will to human and angelic beings. To this Free Will, Boyd adds several credible theological factors including God’s will (God is not a cosmic Santa Claus), the laws of Nature, and strength and numbers of spiritual actors (both human and angelic). Boyd also addresses at length – and rejects - the idea that the faith of the people involved in a tragedy did not fit some formula that would have brought God’s intervention. However, Boyd does conclude that faith is a factor.
I’m in complete agreement about Yahweh’s choice to give Free Will and establish predictability through Nature. I squirm, however, under the notion that anyone’s faith is a factor, or that anyone’s asking is even considered. Let’s take an extreme example to make for a bright test. If I know of the rape of my baby, do I need my baby to cry out for me? Or will I waste every ounce of energy and rip every cell from my body to get to my baby and save him? Of course! It is ludicrous to think otherwise. Love is my motivation and his actions are irrelevant.
Abba, how is this possible? I do not put forward that I am better than Abba, so how can this be possible? I think choice and faith are the keystones. I must choose freely and with faith. So at the beginning, Yahweh chose this arrangement on a complex scale, he chose Free Will for us. It is inherent in faith that I have Free Will. If every time I prayed for healing, the person was healed, how much faith would it take to believe? If I ask for a sign and get it, how free is my choice to believe? Doesn’t every obvious “reveal” further erode my ability to choose on my own?
When talking about my Free Will to choose God and how he will not impose upon or change that Free Will, it’s cool coffee shop talk. But when it’s Jeffrey Dahmer’s Free Will choice to rape and murder men and boys, and God still won't impose upon or change that, it hurts. But the Free Will concept is the same! We move through this world surrounded by the ricocheting choices of billions of beings and the laws of Nature. We are helped or are hurt, we help or hurt.
I believe in Grace and I believe in Redemption, but I do not believe in miracles.
Let me append, I believe Grace and Redemption ARE miracles, why must I insist that he also perform some further act of miracle? Yahweh promises peace that is internal, and that together he and I can turn something evil into a good result – something that can lead to Grace and Redemption in us and others. Is that not miraculous enough?
So what good is prayer? My Abba does want to stop evil, but for complex reasons of true faith he has chosen to do so through us. Abba is crying out for someone (me) to look around and act, to provide resources to affect change. My prayer is part of what brings me closer to acting as he would here. People are changed, killers are stopped, people are fed as we become like him. Yahweh will not reach from the sky and stop the sword.
I want divine help in keeping my family safe? Then, Abba, help me act with wisdom and responsibility. I want divine help in improving your health? Then, Abba, help me show you care and love. I want divine help in eliminating poverty? Then, Abba, help me live responsibly and give dramatically. I want divine help in my boys’ future? Then, Abba, help me show unconditional love and give them tools for the future. Now that I think about it, it would be easier if I could just pray and God would do these things himself…..
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7 comments:
Very good points. Which not surprisingly I agree with.
I've heard Boyd discuss free will in many interesting ways. One of the best that I've heard is the discussion that the free will we have to love, by its very nature has its antithesis as a possibility; namely to hate. If God gave up on free will, there would basically be a race of robots doing His bidding and desires but not providing a relationship. If someone doesn't have the choice to love you, can you really call it love? Because of God's relational aspect, such a relationship, if you can call it that, did not appeal to Him. Thus, we were created/formed/developed (an argument to be had a later time) to have the capacity to freely choose freely whether we would love Him or not. A cosmic roll of the dice for the chance at a true relationship with an inferior being. A roll of the dice that has had and continues to have far reaching consequences.
As for the prayer aspect, I have always had difficulty understanding the argument or theory that if you didn't get what you asked for, you didn't ask correctly or have the proper faith or God didn't want it to happen. To tell someone that their mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister friend was not cured because they did not have the faith to achieve the miracle or that God wanted them to die is at best a horrible mischaracterization by an ignorant well wisher and at worst an overt attempt by "leaders" to defeat, shame and scare more into the flock.
I may have more to add, but to be honest, I can't remember what else you wrote because I'm tired from a busy work and no sleep thanks to a sick baby.
Inevitably, when entering a discussion about the effectiveness and results of prayer, the discussion of why bad things happen to good people rears its ugly, multi-faceted head. The most helpful thing that I have found in both of these areas is the person of Jesus. God has revealed himself to us in many ways, but the primary and most complete was in the form of Jesus. While here on earth, Jesus showed us that the character of God is, in fact, good, generous and loving, above all else. Someone with a firmer background in Biblical fact can back me up on this, but I don't remember a story in which Jesus mentioned faith as a requisite for healing. Obviously, the ones who asked him for healing already had a certain amount of faith just to ask (prayer).
In having this belief as my foundation for God's character, I must reason that people get dealt crap in spite of prayer for another reason. I think Greg Boyd deals with these reasons very well in these talks about prayer. His is a view and practice of prayer that makes sense with me, although for me it would mean a radical change in practice. I am working on it.
I appreciate your comment, Laurie, but the Problem of Evil is not really what I am talking about. It is closely related, sure. But even if you completely agree with Boyd's view of the Problem of Evil, he still says that under some circumstances, with certain factors known and unknown, you can pray for healing and get it. I am saying no, you cannot.
So, Erick, do you pray for Sophia's safety? If yes, why?
I guess what I am saying is that I have to believe that it is possible if I believe that Jesus is the chief revelation of God's character.
I have to admit that I have shared your view of prayer for some time, but I am coming to a different understanding. It's still very much a process. So, while you may not believe in miracles - or at least miracles outside of grace and redemption, I must. Although I understand why you must not. Because how to justify him supposedly saying "no" to some and "yes" to others. What could possibly cause him to do so? Is that a summary of your issue or am I misunderstanding? This is a question that I am willing to investigate further, but for now I have to hope for a reason to communicate with God outside his need for relationship.
So, what is your conclusion about prayer? I don't fully understand. It is essentially useless and decorative? Not being flippant. Just asking.
(Insert big affirmation here, great thoughts, great blog, thanks for putting it out there, I don't have the courage to discuss my thoughts about this beyond the intimate setting of the dinner table).
I thought I understood what you were saying until one of your comments back to LJ, when you said that you felt that you CAN NOT get an answer to prayer about healing. Would that be a correct statement of your current belief?
If it is, understandable.
It would seem to contradict your belief in God as "Daddy" or "Abba". Your insistent use of the word "Yahweh" implies that you believe in an intimate, loving, open, approachable RELATIONSHIP with communication as a key foundational componant. You know about that. How could it be a relationship if he didn't listen and respond, or if you didn't talk and listen for a response in return? How could you ignore that relational componant when it comes to prayer outside of the subjects of grace and redemption? He set it up as a relationship so he has to somehow respond, he has to want to, and sometimes all the "prayer factors" will align to get the response we (us and God) want, and sometimes it won't. If he is truly your "Daddy", as you like to metaphor him, then are you limiting him to only responding to you about certain things? Or, do you think he's limited himself to only respond to you about certain things? I believe the factors themselves are limiting, but not to certain subjects. We are tiny molecules of knowledge (or idiocy) floating in a sea of mystery, right? We just can't know. How can you be so certain that you CAN NOT get a response from your God? And, perhaps more importantly, how can you throw aside or ignore your belief in your God as a "Yahweh" God to come to that conclusion?
Hmm, I can't remember everything you said, so I'm hoping you don't rip me apart for this... I know we're all still on this journey about prayer. What the hell is it good for? That's been the question of my lifetime and it's been a fruitful search lately and I'm grateful for a gracious God.
anonymous made me laugh. Sounds an awful lot like Casey. I agree with what she said, though. I forgot to offer a big thanks for broaching the subject. I can never find the right way, and I love to have these types of conversations with you...in person and online.
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